Long before Steve Jobs was the unstoppable force of nature atop Apple, shipping hit product after hit product, he was practically run out of the company after a series of bad product and management decisions. But as Geoffrey Cain argues in his new book, Steve Jobs in Exile: The Untold Story of NeXT and the Remaking of an American Visionary, the 12 years Jobs spent outside of Apple turned him into the leader the world came to know. Cain joins the show to talk about Jobs' experiences at NeXT and Pixar, how Jobs learned to be a successful leader, and the true power — and danger — of the reality distortion field. We have new merch! Get yours here: https://bit.ly/3RCikCY 0:00 Intro 0:29 90 Seconds on The Verge 2:18 Book intro: Steve Jobs in Exile 3:57 Interview begins — Jobs as "immature agent of chaos" 8:41 Could Jobs & Sculley have worked it out? 11:36 Jobs as a leader: great at hiring, terrible to work for 14:03 The NeXT story begins 22:31 Jobs' obsessive attention to detail at NeXT 25:55 The Pixar story 28:16 Was NeXT a timing mistake? Counterfactuals 31:37 The IBM deal that could have changed everything 37:57 Jobs learning to "take a longer view" 40:52 Jobs returns to Apple 44:42 Outro & wrap-up Subscribe: http://goo.gl/G5RXGs Like The Verge on Facebook: https://goo.gl/2P1aGc Follow on Twitter: https://goo.gl/XTWX61 Follow on Instagram: https://goo.gl/7ZeLv Watch The Vergecast on YouTube: https://bit.ly/40RFRkg The Vergecast Podcast: https://bit.ly/3WQDexZ Decoder with Nilay Patel: http://apple.co/3v29nDc More about our podcasts: https://www.theverge.com/podcasts Read More: http://www.theverge.com Community guidelines: http://bit.ly/2D0hlAv Wallpapers from The Verge: https://bit.ly/2xQXYJr Shop our Verge merch store here: https://bit.ly/4kPCmEc Subscribe to The Verge: https://bit.ly/3FT6n5S If you buy something from a Verge link, Vox Media may receive a commission without exerting any influence on editorial content. For more information about our ethics policy, visit: https://bit.ly/3ZWTlLs