Carole Robin spent over 20 years teaching the Stanford Graduate School of Business course Interpersonal Dynamics, affectionately known as “Touchy Feely.” After leaving Stanford, she founded a nonprofit called Leaders in Tech, which applies the Touchy Feely principles to help Silicon Valley executives build their leadership and interpersonal skills. Carole co-authored the popular book Connect: Building Exceptional Relationships with Family, Friends, and Colleagues, which shares key insights from her decades of teaching these courses. In our conversation, we discuss: • The benefits of building robust relationships, in life and work • The 15% rule, and how it will help you build better relationships • The power of vulnerability • Examples of how to practice vulnerability • Why mental models you build early in life hold you back later • The “three realities” and “the net” • The art of inquiry • Practical tips for avoiding defensiveness when getting feedback • The impact of long Covid on Carole’s life — Brought to you by: • Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments: https://www.geteppo.com/ • CommandBar—AI-powered user assistance for modern products and impatient users: https://www.commandbar.com/lenny • The a16z Podcast—Featuring conversations with the founders and technologists shaping our future: https://link.chtbl.com/qLhgyi65 Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/build-robust-relationships-carole-robin Where to find Carole Robin: • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/carole-robin/ • Email: carolerobinllc@gmail.com Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Carole’s background (05:17) The importance of building robust relationships (10:20) The “Touchy Feely” course at Stanford (13:29) An example of the in-class experience (17:19) Leaders in Tech: developing interpersonal competence (21:36) Progressive disclosure and the 15% rule (24:28) Appropriate disclosure (26:52) The power of vulnerability (34:57) Admitting mistakes and sharing feelings (37:08) Understanding mental models (42:57) The “three realities” framework (53:52) The power of feedback and personal change (58:47) The art of inquiry (01:03:27) How to get better at giving feedback (01:07:47) Exercises and continued learning (01:10:49) “Advice hinders relationships” (01:16:49) Failure corner: AFOG (01:20:30) Takeaways (01:21:51) Lessons from long Covid Referenced: • How to Build Better Relationships: https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/insights/how-build-better-relationships • Connect: Building Exceptional Relationships with Family, Friends, and Colleagues: https://www.amazon.com/Connect-Building-Exceptional-Relationships-Colleagues-ebook/dp/B0894279WZ • Leaders in Tech: https://leadersintech.org/ • Leaders in Tech Fellows: https://leadersintech.org/learnaboutfellows • Steve Jobs: https://www.forbes.com/profile/steve-jobs/ • Sheryl Sandberg on X: https://twitter.com/sherylsandberg • Ursula Burns: https://www.forbes.com/profile/ursula-burns/ • Application for Leaders in Tech: https://leadersintech.org/programs-and-applications • Vygotsky’s Zone of Proximal Development and Scaffolding Theory: https://www.simplypsychology.org/zone-of-proximal-development.html • The Best Leaders Aren’t Afraid to Be Vulnerable: https://hbr.org/2022/07/the-best-leaders-arent-afraid-of-being-vulnerable • The Surprising Benefits of Admitting Mistakes: 5 Ways to Build Intellectual Humility: https://www.forbes.com/sites/tracybrower/2021/12/29/the-surprising-benefits-of-admitting-mistakes-5-ways-to-build-intellectual-humility/ • How to Build Conflict Skills—The Pinch/Crunch Model: https://www.forbes.com/sites/hannahart/2023/12/15/how-to-build-conflict-skills-the-pinchcrunch-model/ • Slides mentioned (The Three Realities Framework | The 15% Rule | Feedback Guidelines): https://www.notion.so/pen-name/Carole-Robin-on-Lenny-s-Podcast-dc7159208e4242428f4b11ebc92285eb • Mindset: The New Psychology of Success: https://www.amazon.com/Mindset-Psychology-Carol-S-Dweck/dp/0345472322 • Management Time: Who’s Got the Monkey?: https://hbr.org/1999/11/management-time-whos-got-the-monkey • Long COVID: major findings, mechanisms and recommendations: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-022-00846-2 • Leadership, acceptance, and self-management: my journey with long COVID: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/leadership-acceptance-self-management-my-journey-long-carole-robin/ Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com. Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.