After President Trump demanded that the nations of NATO pay more for their own defense, Mark Rutte, NATO’s secretary general, helped deliver it. On The Interview, Rutte talks to Lulu Garcia-Navarro about why he wants everyone to stop questioning the American president’s commitment to NATO. For more: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/05/magazine/mark-rutte-interview.html “The Interview” podcast from The New York Times features conversations with the world’s most fascinating people. Each week, hosts David Marchese and Lulu Garcia-Navarro talk to compelling, influential figures in culture, politics, business, sports and beyond — illuminating who they are, why they do what they do and how they impact the rest of us. New episodes every Saturday. Listen wherever you get your podcasts 🎧 Watch more from The Interview: https://www.youtube.com/@theinterviewpodcast More from The New York Times: https://www.youtube.com/nytpodcasts Follow NYT Magazine: https://www.instagram.com/nytmag/ Follow NYTimes: https://www.instagram.com/nytimes/ Subscribe to NYT Audio: https://bit.ly/3Qz3GZu Download the NYT App: https://bit.ly/4gZdoip #TheInterview