In this in-depth conversation, John sits down with Karen Hyatt to explore her lifelong faith journey in the LDS Church and the research that ultimately led to her excommunication. Karen shares her background as a devoted member -convert parents, mission service, leadership roles, and decades without doubt –before explaining what prompted her to closely examine Doctrine and Covenants 132 and the history of polygamy. Karen explains why she ultimately rejected D&C 132, why she believes Joseph Smith did NOT practice polygamy, and how she responds to accusations of bias or conspiracy thinking. Karen also walks through the personal and institutional consequences of speaking publicly: compiling and sending her research to the Apostles (and their wives!), creating videos, disciplinary councils, losing her temple recommend, and being barred from paying tithing –while still choosing to attend church and value her ward community. The episode examines broader themes of authority, misinformation, prophetic fallibility, confirmation bias, and whether faith can exist without institutional silence. To find a PDF version of her book click here: https://josephtoldthetruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/Woe-Unto-You-Scribes.pdf Show notes can be found on the Mormon Stories blog here: https://www.mormonstories.org/excommunicated-for-disbelieving-in-joseph-smiths-polygamy/ TImecodes: 00:00:00 Introduction 00:09:54 Karen’s parents joined the church as converts 00:12:11 Felt prompted to get baptized 00:13:20 College & Mission 00:14:45 Got married in 1991 00:16:03 Moved back to California 00:17:36 Never had any doubts in the church 00:19:09 Was a Stake YW President 00:21:57 People very surprised that she has been excommunicated 00:23:47 Was not taught a lot about polygamy in her youth 00:27:20 Discussing D&C 132 - most controversial scripture in Mormonism 00:35:13 Did not approve of church’s reaction to Covid-19 00:45:41 History on church’s stance on polygamy 00:49:55 The original D&C condemns polygamy 00:56:33 Discussing the Nauvoo Expositer 01:03:42 Karen has compiled a book with her evidence 01:05:35 Sent her book to each of the apostles - did not hear back 01:07:36 “This is the only doctrine that is morally repugnant” 01:14:27 Discussing The Joseph Smith Papers Project 01:17:11 Discussing Emma Smith 01:26:05 How the church has set people up for this confusion 01:28:37 All of the trusted Mormon historians have concluded that Joseph practiced polygamy 01:30:10 How Karen came to arrive at a different conclusion 01:40:11 Summary of Karen’s main arguments 01:47:42 Response to being called a "conspiracy theorist” 01:51:15 Does not have a theory for why Fanny was sent away 02:02:53 John discussing confirmation bias 02:09:13 Discussing Lyonard Arrington 02:15:11 Journal entry from Joseph Smith (written by scribe) - “No man shall have but one wife” 02:18:08 Felt very happy once she lost belief in D&C 132, telling others what she’d learned 02:23:07 Strange that the church wants people to read gospel topic essays, but don’t want it taught 02:31:50 Was Joseph F. Smith lying about polygamy? 02:34:58 Her thoughts on the teachings on the prophets never leading the church astray 02:42:09 Brigham Young’s polygamy and the church not wanting him to look corrupt 02:44:54 “Use your discernment, don't blindly follow” 02:51:41 Discussing RLDS movement that did not believe in polygamy 02:59:33 Started to receive opposition from members 03:00:31 Decided to create a video 03:09:10 Met with her stake president, had a second interview 03:19:10 Understood that they would probably be taking her temple recommend away 03:22:29 Karen begins helping Michelle Stone with her channel 03:25:26 Her stake president watched her movie, advised her to take it down 03:29:32 How leaders can be affected by evidence in disciplinary councils 03:34:49 Believe they were all doing what they thought was best - it was 4 ½ hours 03:38:17 They began by laying out the evidence against her 03:43:11 They claimed that people were getting in “fist-a-cuffs” over this information 03:47:18 Reading what she said in her defence 03:56:51 The end of her disciplinary council, reassuring the leaders that she was “100% fine” 04:00:48 How did her husband feel about it? 04:09:22 “It’s the church that follows the brethren" 04:12:10 “Not allowed” to pay tithing anymore 04:14:54 This was “influenced” by people above her ward leaders 04:16:07 Karen’s beliefs around the restoration 04:19:20 How does she rationalize Brigham Young being a fallen prophet in her eyes 04:23:37 Does not have belief in the “snuffer” movement 04:25:36 John challenging Karen on other truth claims - why stop on polygamy? 04:35:27 Karen strongly condemns the church covering up sexual abuse 04:46:55 She feels that God wants this information out there 04:48:12 Does she think this will cause people to leave the church? 04:53:44 Where to find Karen online 04:57:36 Conclusion